Comments on: Topping from the Bottom: One Submissive’s Thoughts

By: LordSir Ninetails

LordSir Ninetails — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 16:37:49 +0000

Cloud, did you mean to say, “Yet there ARE those who get it, in their bones, even if they Do Not learn and study technique…” ?

I would agree that some Dominants SEEM to be more gifted or natural-seeming than others but there are more ways of Dominating than what overtly appears and I have seen many submissives who appeared to be more Dominant than the Dominant they served. Yet there they are serving the Dominant they have evaluated and chosen. Yes, in our part of the world the submissive is the person who really is the one who chooses a Dominant, not the other way around. They seek us, evaluate us, and then decide to submit to us or not. This would seem backwards to many parts of the world. Nevertheless, some people do learn Dominance at an early age and are very practiced at it by adulthood. They appear to be “true” Dominants and submissives naturally gravitate to them. Yet, later on, you see this “true” Dominant submitting to someone else, whom THEY feel is, a “true” Dominant, and you don’t get it at first because the one submitting seems so much more like what a “true” Dominant should be like in your mind. Ah, the sweet subtleties of it all! Smiling with Love in BDSM, -LordSir Ninetails

By: Cloud

Cloud — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 05:17:36 +0000

::grin:: LordSir, my main point in comment 8 was that I was not commenting at all on bad topping by Dominants. Only on “good” or “bad” topping-from-the-bottom. Bad topping is another topic.

And “true” Dominants and submissives – lol – yeah; it’s a problematic label. Yet there ARE those who get it, in their bones, even if they learn and study technique, and those who do not get it, no matter their interest. It sounds like the submissive in your unfortunate instance was not really submitting, but wanted to control and direct, thereby missing the essence and good parts (in my experience); sensation play is nice, but to me, the heart of BDSM is power exchange, which has an intense pleasure for submissives and Dominants that nothing else can create.

By: LordSir Ninetails

LordSir Ninetails — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 15:57:27 +0000

O’ Lord, not the “true” Dominant and “true” submissive thing again. LOL. But you are correct on most of your points(except one), in fact, I would agree with the last 3 paragraphs of your Comment No. 8 with one addendum: Obviously with the situation I presented I was working towards trying to gain the trust of the submissive and In the submissive – but she was not concerned with the second part of that equation(or the first part apparently).

Now, the part I was referring to in Comment No.4 was in response to when you opened up the topic of Bad Topping in your response to Moonglow in Comment No. 3, last sentence. Perhaps I misunderstood you. If I have, please clarify and forgive me. With Love in BDSM -LordSir Ninetails

By: Cloud

Cloud — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 00:23:39 +0000

LordSir, I meant no comment on bad topping; a separate subject, and one I will approach with care as a switch. I spoke in comments as in the article only of topping from the bottom, which I believe can be initiated by either a submissive or by a Dominant who insists the sub top the scene or relationship. Quite a different thing from criticism of a Dominant’s topping.

Dominants can be mindfucked as much as can submissives; I agree it is a good reason for even RL experienced Dominants to get to know submissives before anything psychologically physically or emotionally risky; in SL that means more, imho, for subs and Doms than a cursory read of profiles and a “wanna play?”

Gossip is the bane of any community.

Pushy subs – well, sometimes they are worth the trouble, and sometimes not, for a true Dominant. … and what sub is not sometimes pushy, or testing of their Dominant? It’s part of What Subs Do, and handling it is part of What Dominants Do, and – well, it’s YUMMY, like warm chocolate sauce or a good carress. But pushiness IMHO, again boils down to trust; can the sub and Dom develop trust between them? That’s the key.

By: LordSir Ninetails

LordSir Ninetails — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 04:38:53 +0000

@Moonglow, if you are talking about communication in aftercare, then yes there was, if you are talking about after being dissed, then no, other than a request for retraction of remarks made. It would have been a waste of time with this person. Later, this person would go on to diss several other well respected players. Needless to say, this person now finds it difficult to get a play partner. As for my part, I am always upfront with what the person should expect including with what the pace will be like when starting. Unfortunately, with this person, they weren’t upfront with me about their expectations, and were expecting to be able to “push” me into doing something as heavy as what they had seen me do with someone I had more experience with. One lesson learned though…I now have a witness(usually another well respected Dominant) with me during initial negotiations and then after I have become accustomed to them it can progress with just one on one negotiations. With Love in BDSM, -LordSir Ninetails

By: Moonglow Bouchard

Moonglow Bouchard — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 03:36:48 +0000

Cloud, thank you for the more expanded answer. Even in non bdsm sexual relationships trust of self and the partner is essential. Therefore when taking, or giving, of self in a scenario such as has been described in many of the pages here and elsewhere, it is even more crutial. As is open and honest communication in many levels.
Your words strike home.
Thanks,
Moonglow

By: Moonglow Bouchard

Moonglow Bouchard — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 03:30:10 +0000

LordSir, I am relatively new to all of this. But I would beg a question from the above experience. Was there communication afterward? If so, do you believe it to be honest and straightforward?

Moonglow

By: LordSir Ninetails

LordSir Ninetails — Mon, 30 Mar 2009 16:06:11 +0000

Yes, Cloud and Moonglow, your thoughts and words are true, however, I am not sure this has ever happened to you, but it has to me, where being cautious with a new partner was misconstrued as being “bad topping” from a Dominant. The submissive didn’t get enough of what they thought they wanted, discounted the Dominant as being unconfident(read: Not Forceful Enough) and therefore a bad Top and spread the lie amongst their peers. Of course, requiring a dreadful amount of needless community image repair. If such a thing happened in SL we could simply ban such a person from a sim; however in RL it is immensely more complicated. Still, I have found out the hard way on SL that negotiation is much shorter than what I am accustomed to in RL and that you have a much shorter window of opportunity to impress someone with your ability. It seems to even require an abbreviated sense of SSC (and in some cases in which I have been the voyuer to the scene a definite lack of SSC) in most situations. Perhaps the Slutavists have a point to make afterall…perhaps we Should negotiate and treat them with the kind of respect we would offer them in RL……………………Nawwwwwwwww!
-LordSir Ninetails

By: Cloud Bracken

Cloud Bracken — Mon, 30 Mar 2009 02:29:06 +0000

Moonglow, you provoke a further thought for me, in your comments on my words “Bad topping can be motivated by distrust, personal insecurities about which one refuses to communicate, shallow BDSM roles or relationships, bad faith or a desire to mind fuck, selfishness, lack of compassion and respect for one’s partner, inability to tolerate ambiguity, inability or refusal to consider the person behind the role of either Dom or sub, fear of Power Exchange or the intimacy it can trigger, impatience”. I have said that either a sub OR a Dom can insist on “bad” topping from the bottom. Those words could apply as easily to a Dominant, who also doesn’t trust their submissive or themselves or the relationship.

By: Moonglow Bouchard

Moonglow Bouchard — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 17:59:41 +0000

“Bad topping can be motivated by distrust, personal insecurities about which one refuses to communicate, shallow BDSM roles or relationships, bad faith or a desire to mind fuck, selfishness, lack of compassion and respect for one’s partner, inability to tolerate ambiguity, inability or refusal to consider the person behind the role of either Dom or sub, fear of Power Exchange or the intimacy it can trigger, impatience”

So, basically all these character flaws leads me to believe that this type of manipulative person doesn’t really want to give up anything.

“Good topping from the bottom is in my opinion motivated and structured by honesty, trust, mutual respect for persons and roles, … ”

And this type of person is willing to surrender to their Dom because of the things established.

Nice article and good reading Cloud.

Thanks,
Moonglow

By: LordSir Ninetails

LordSir Ninetails — Fri, 20 Mar 2009 17:32:36 +0000

Hmmmm, interesting…Does a Top have to be a Dominant? Does a Bottom have to be a Submissive? For me, being a Top or a Bottom has little bearing on whether someone is a Dominant or Submissive. Have you ever seen a Dominant bottom to another Dominant or a knowledgeable submissive? It is sometimes called “Mentoring”, “Dominant in Training”, or “Dominant’s Apprentice”. I know of at least one SadoMasochistic Dominant who “Bottoms” very occasionally just to satisfy their Masochistic side of themselves once in a while when they aren’t being a Sadist for their submissives. It could be argued that it may even enhance their Sadistic abilities.
As for Topping from the Bottom being good or bad it is neither to a skilled Dominant. A skilled Dominant can use it to their advantage such as when it is being done as a S.A.M. (Smart Assed Masochist) or when it is being done to learn a particular skill that the Bottom knows and is trying to teach the Top. When done by a S.A.M. it simply leads to the Dominant reasserting their Dominance over the submissive. After learning a skill from a Bottom it then becomes the Dominants responsibility to become expert with the skill or not use it.
I have to admit that I was a little confused in reading the transition of the original post from talking about “Topping from the Bottom” to “Dishonesty in a BDSM Relationship”. However, it is possible to come across someone who is Bottoming who is a Dominant, and they may have said they were a Submissive, and that would indeed be Dishonest, just as someone Topping claiming to be a Dominant who is actually a submissive would also be Dishonest. Perhaps that is where that part of the post was going?
with Love in BDSM, -LordSir Ninetails