Preface: I wrote the following in considering how to discuss with a friend how in the world I could ever have offered submission, as I did, to Dominants who were not as educated or aware or BDSM savvy (to the extent that I am or was) as I was. Or how, yep, I HAVE topped from the bottom, in the best way and also in a not good way at times, and how I struggled quietly with that, with minimal assistance from less aware Doms. Or why topping from the bottom is something that recently I have refused even when basically requested to do it, and WHY I have refused it. And also 
how perhaps I see the partnership dance of my style of submission, how I perceive myself to be my Master’s equal and committed partner in some ways, yet offer also my deep submission, which I expect to become richer as time goes on.
Topping From The Bottom: One Submissive’s Thoughts
Topping from the bottom… is there any more damning characterization of a submissive’s behavior? Well yes, in fact, I think there is. But more on that later…
First, what is it? Topping from the bottom is when the submissive is dominating the dominant and the relationship. As examples of how this can be expressed (but without intending to imply that any particular behavior means the sub IS topping), consider: a submissive who has a dominant at their beck and call, in terms of time together; a submissive who determines when play will occur and (even beyond hard limits) what will occur; a submissive who will not tolerate surprises from their Dom; a submissive who rewards and punishes their Dom; a submissive
who chooses and controls any “punishment” of the submissive; a submissive who chooses all the limits, and does not respect or acknowledge their Dominant’s limits; a submissive who deliberately embarrasses their Dominant; a submissive who guides and teaches the Dominant.
Did you read that last one? That is what I consider “good” topping from the bottom. An experienced and VERY respectful submissive can within limits ethically and honestly guide and teach an inexperienced Dominant, in my humble opinion. The limits are, the submissive has to expect and respect mistakes, and honor their Dominant by accepting the mutual consequences as the Dominant learns and exercises control. The submissive must honestly and trustingly offer their obedience and vulnerability to someone who is still learning how to safeguard the submissive and themselves physically, emotionally, and socially.
Those of us who practice virtual BDSM, online and remotely, do need to consider physical safety if the virtual-to-real life play becomes lively. Emotionally, virtual relationships are VERY vulnerable to both parties, and insisting “online doesn’t really mean anything” is an ineffective and rather pathetic attempt to discount the potential impact we have on each other while playing in each other’s heads. Socially – in virtual relationships and communities, reputations matter less, I think, than in the real life BDSM world. But I still wince when I hear Doms (usually new and online-only ones) sometimes casually gossipping and damning their released submissives as one who tops from the bottom. I also wince when I hear outsiders gossip about Dominants or submissives by disparaging the authenticity of individuals’ choices. Ladies and gentlemen – that is not the behavior of ladies and gentlemen, nor is that of any released submissives who gossip about the Dominants who released them. If your ego is so fragile, after breaking up, that you need to disparage the person you chose to get intimate with, then shut up and deal with your issues rather than striking out. Same if your own BDSM is so boring to you that you spend most of your attention to critiquing others rather than studying your self. (I am a switch, and while my language there is harsh, honestly, that is my sincere best advice for your health. But Master – please, chastize me severely if I am being disrespectful of others.)
“Good” topping from the bottom, in my humble opinion, can be requested by a Dominant or offered by a submissive. It is something which strengthens both the dominance and the submission. It is educational, for both, and it changes both, to be better individually and together. It is used with caution and respect by both, and I consider it healthy that it be explicitly acknowledged at some points during non-scene/non-play/not-in-role communication. A dominant can give the submissive assignments designed to be explicitly educational, in terms of research or personal sharing, or can in or out of role require the submissive to provide feedback which helps the Dominant in their development. Many submissives love to serve, in any way their Dominant requests and enjoys. Most submissives understand the gift of their submission can be in many forms, and obedience is a pleasure.
So what is WORSE than topping from the bottom, every form of it? Dishonesty. In the sub and in the dom. And especially that dishonesty which is refusing to take responsibility for one’s own actions, but not for anyone else’s. No one, Dom or sub, is ultimately responsible for another’s behavior, not if the people are competent adults. (And if not competent adults, you cannot consent, and you’re not doing BDSM, you are doing something else.) A Dom chooses to dominate, and a submissive chooses to submit; it is a symbiosis, an experience created in partnership like good ballroom dance. The partners must learn to lead and to follow, together, and in time find their movements together.
Dishonesty in a BDSM relationship can be attempted by either partner. It can also be perpetuated however in cooperation by both. “Bad” topping from the bottom is dishonest, in my humble opinion. It is based on manipulation and use of the other without care for the other’s ultimate well being and for one’s own integrity. A dominant can demand it, using a submissive who truly cannot be satisfied by a dominant role, who longs to trust their Dom and surrender control but must instead serve the Dom by maintaining control. A submissive can demand it, frustrating a trustworthy Dominant who hopes to take the submissive beyond titillation and sensation and into the mysterious realms of sub-space, as the Dominant enjoys Dom-space.
What inspires or motivates “bad” topping from the bottom contrasts sharply with that of “good” topping from the bottom. Bad topping can be motivated by distrust, personal insecurities about which one refuses to communicate, shallow BDSM roles or relationships, bad faith or a desire to mind fuck, selfishness, lack of compassion and respect for one’s partner, inability to tolerate ambiguity, inability or refusal to consider the person behind the role of either Dom or sub, fear of Power Exchange or the intimacy it can trigger, impatience. Good topping from the bottom is in my opinion motivated and structured by honesty, trust, mutual respect for persons and roles, and a desire for the personal development of the Dominate and ultimate greater mutual pleasure of all partners.
The most satisfying way out of topping from the bottom, bad or good, is in my opinion NOT *out* of the relationship, but *through* that phase of it. It takes considerable honesty and self assurance to tolerate that level of change during a relationship. But trust becomes pleasure when taken through fire. And a great Dominant or submissive partner is very precious indeed.
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Hmmmm, interesting…Does a Top have to be a Dominant? Does a Bottom have to be a Submissive? For me, being a Top or a Bottom has little bearing on whether someone is a Dominant or Submissive. Have you ever seen a Dominant bottom to another Dominant or a knowledgeable submissive? It is sometimes called “Mentoring”, “Dominant in Training”, or “Dominant’s Apprentice”. I know of at least one SadoMasochistic Dominant who “Bottoms” very occasionally just to satisfy their Masochistic side of themselves once in a while when they aren’t being a Sadist for their submissives. It could be argued that it may even enhance their Sadistic abilities.
As for Topping from the Bottom being good or bad it is neither to a skilled Dominant. A skilled Dominant can use it to their advantage such as when it is being done as a S.A.M. (Smart Assed Masochist) or when it is being done to learn a particular skill that the Bottom knows and is trying to teach the Top. When done by a S.A.M. it simply leads to the Dominant reasserting their Dominance over the submissive. After learning a skill from a Bottom it then becomes the Dominants responsibility to become expert with the skill or not use it.
I have to admit that I was a little confused in reading the transition of the original post from talking about “Topping from the Bottom” to “Dishonesty in a BDSM Relationship”. However, it is possible to come across someone who is Bottoming who is a Dominant, and they may have said they were a Submissive, and that would indeed be Dishonest, just as someone Topping claiming to be a Dominant who is actually a submissive would also be Dishonest. Perhaps that is where that part of the post was going?
with Love in BDSM, -LordSir Ninetails
“Bad topping can be motivated by distrust, personal insecurities about which one refuses to communicate, shallow BDSM roles or relationships, bad faith or a desire to mind fuck, selfishness, lack of compassion and respect for one’s partner, inability to tolerate ambiguity, inability or refusal to consider the person behind the role of either Dom or sub, fear of Power Exchange or the intimacy it can trigger, impatience”
So, basically all these character flaws leads me to believe that this type of manipulative person doesn’t really want to give up anything.
“Good topping from the bottom is in my opinion motivated and structured by honesty, trust, mutual respect for persons and roles, … ”
And this type of person is willing to surrender to their Dom because of the things established.
Nice article and good reading Cloud.
Thanks,
Moonglow
Moonglow, you provoke a further thought for me, in your comments on my words “Bad topping can be motivated by distrust, personal insecurities about which one refuses to communicate, shallow BDSM roles or relationships, bad faith or a desire to mind fuck, selfishness, lack of compassion and respect for one’s partner, inability to tolerate ambiguity, inability or refusal to consider the person behind the role of either Dom or sub, fear of Power Exchange or the intimacy it can trigger, impatience”. I have said that either a sub OR a Dom can insist on “bad” topping from the bottom. Those words could apply as easily to a Dominant, who also doesn’t trust their submissive or themselves or the relationship.
Yes, Cloud and Moonglow, your thoughts and words are true, however, I am not sure this has ever happened to you, but it has to me, where being cautious with a new partner was misconstrued as being “bad topping” from a Dominant. The submissive didn’t get enough of what they thought they wanted, discounted the Dominant as being unconfident(read: Not Forceful Enough) and therefore a bad Top and spread the lie amongst their peers. Of course, requiring a dreadful amount of needless community image repair. If such a thing happened in SL we could simply ban such a person from a sim; however in RL it is immensely more complicated. Still, I have found out the hard way on SL that negotiation is much shorter than what I am accustomed to in RL and that you have a much shorter window of opportunity to impress someone with your ability. It seems to even require an abbreviated sense of SSC (and in some cases in which I have been the voyuer to the scene a definite lack of SSC) in most situations. Perhaps the Slutavists have a point to make afterall…perhaps we Should negotiate and treat them with the kind of respect we would offer them in RL……………………Nawwwwwwwww!
-LordSir Ninetails
LordSir, I am relatively new to all of this. But I would beg a question from the above experience. Was there communication afterward? If so, do you believe it to be honest and straightforward?
Moonglow
Cloud, thank you for the more expanded answer. Even in non bdsm sexual relationships trust of self and the partner is essential. Therefore when taking, or giving, of self in a scenario such as has been described in many of the pages here and elsewhere, it is even more crutial. As is open and honest communication in many levels.
Your words strike home.
Thanks,
Moonglow
@Moonglow, if you are talking about communication in aftercare, then yes there was, if you are talking about after being dissed, then no, other than a request for retraction of remarks made. It would have been a waste of time with this person. Later, this person would go on to diss several other well respected players. Needless to say, this person now finds it difficult to get a play partner. As for my part, I am always upfront with what the person should expect including with what the pace will be like when starting. Unfortunately, with this person, they weren’t upfront with me about their expectations, and were expecting to be able to “push” me into doing something as heavy as what they had seen me do with someone I had more experience with. One lesson learned though…I now have a witness(usually another well respected Dominant) with me during initial negotiations and then after I have become accustomed to them it can progress with just one on one negotiations. With Love in BDSM, -LordSir Ninetails
LordSir, I meant no comment on bad topping; a separate subject, and one I will approach with care as a switch. I spoke in comments as in the article only of topping from the bottom, which I believe can be initiated by either a submissive or by a Dominant who insists the sub top the scene or relationship. Quite a different thing from criticism of a Dominant’s topping.
Dominants can be mindfucked as much as can submissives; I agree it is a good reason for even RL experienced Dominants to get to know submissives before anything psychologically physically or emotionally risky; in SL that means more, imho, for subs and Doms than a cursory read of profiles and a “wanna play?”
Gossip is the bane of any community.
Pushy subs – well, sometimes they are worth the trouble, and sometimes not, for a true Dominant. … and what sub is not sometimes pushy, or testing of their Dominant? It’s part of What Subs Do, and handling it
is part of What Dominants Do, and – well, it’s YUMMY, like warm chocolate sauce or a good carress. But pushiness IMHO, again boils down to trust; can the sub and Dom develop trust between them? That’s the key.
O’ Lord, not the “true” Dominant and “true” submissive thing again. LOL. But you are correct on most of your points(except one), in fact, I would agree with the last 3 paragraphs of your Comment No. 8 with one addendum: Obviously with the situation I presented I was working towards trying to gain the trust of the submissive and In the submissive – but she was not concerned with the second part of that equation(or the first part apparently).
Now, the part I was referring to in Comment No.4 was in response to when you opened up the topic of Bad Topping in your response to Moonglow in Comment No. 3, last sentence. Perhaps I misunderstood you. If I have, please clarify and forgive me. With Love in BDSM -LordSir Ninetails
::grin:: LordSir, my main point in comment 8 was that I was not commenting at all on bad topping by Dominants. Only on “good” or “bad” topping-from-the-bottom. Bad topping is another topic.
And “true” Dominants and submissives – lol – yeah; it’s a problematic label. Yet there ARE those who get it, in their bones, even if they learn and study technique, and those who do not get it, no matter their interest. It sounds like the submissive in your unfortunate instance was not really submitting, but wanted to control and direct, thereby missing the essence and good parts (in my experience); sensation play is nice, but to me, the heart of BDSM is power exchange, which has an intense pleasure for submissives and Dominants that nothing else can create.
Cloud, did you mean to say, “Yet there ARE those who get it, in their bones, even if they Do Not learn and study technique…” ?
I would agree that some Dominants SEEM to be more gifted or natural-seeming than others but there are more ways of Dominating than what overtly appears and I have seen many submissives who appeared to be more Dominant than the Dominant they served. Yet there they are serving the Dominant they have evaluated and chosen. Yes, in our part of the world the submissive is the person who really is the one who chooses a Dominant, not the other way around. They seek us, evaluate us, and then decide to submit to us or not. This would seem backwards to many parts of the world. Nevertheless, some people do learn Dominance at an early age and are very practiced at it by adulthood. They appear to be “true” Dominants and submissives naturally gravitate to them. Yet, later on, you see this “true” Dominant submitting to someone else, whom THEY feel is, a “true” Dominant, and you don’t get it at first because the one submitting seems so much more like what a “true” Dominant should be like in your mind. Ah, the sweet subtleties of it all! Smiling with Love in BDSM, -LordSir Ninetails